Storytelling

Salimah Samji Welcome to the third episode of the Leadership Organizing and Action podcast series with Marshall Ganz. Welcome, Marshall. 

Marshall Ganz Hi, Salimah. Nice to be with you again.

Salimah Samji In today’s podcast, we will discuss the second key practice, which is storytelling. Marshall, why don’t we start with why is storytelling important? 

Marshall Ganz Well, our overall approach to leadership and to organizing is a heart, head, and hands approach. So you go from relationships to outcomes. And so storytelling or narrative is the heart work. It’s to address the question: Why do we care? Why does it matter? Who are we that we care? And so it is to answer the why questions whereas strategy answers the how questions. And so that’s kind of the role of it. Because narrative has evolved as one of the principal ways in which we access the emotional content of our values for sources of hope, for sources of solidarity, identity, for sources of a sense of self advocacy as opposed to the fear and isolation and self-doubt that often becomes a reaction to challenges we face. So if we’re really talking about leadership and agency, one of the fundamental missions of leadership is to enable people to deal with the challenge, the threat, the unexpected. And narrative is crafted to do that. Because that’s what makes a story a story. It’s that there’s an expectation, there’s a disruption, there’s a response, and then there’s an outcome. We often call the outcome a moral, and we often call the person experiencing the challenge a protagonist. And then the learning is in not so much the strategic response, but the emotional response. How to respond with hope, not fear. And that’s kind of at the heart of what agency is about. And it’s how our values are translated into action. Because values are not ideas. Values are feelings. They’re emotional commitments and experience to people, experiences and so forth. And so we need to be clear that when confronted with a challenge or with a threat, then the question is how can I respond mindfully as opposed to react fearfully? Fundamental question. And in the answer to those questions, our values become the resources because values are how we feel, what inspires, what causes despair, what lifts us up, what casts us down. And narrative is a way of learning how to speak the language of values, which is the language of emotion. It is not like putting a bunch of values on the wall and saying these are our values. It’s really probing into why we choose this over that. And that comes from our emotional understanding of the world and what matters. And it’s like Saint Augustine said, it’s one thing to know the good, another to love it. Loving it is what enables action on it. Knowledge without motivation does not produce action. So storytelling is not some add-on and it’s not some form of messaging. It’s actually how we construct our identities and the values in which our identities are grounded, and therefore the emotional capacity we have to work together to take risks, to learn and to grow. 

Salimah Samji Wonderful. Thank you. How does this idea of storytelling work? You know, you’ve talked a lot about emotion, and you write about how a well-told story moment can bring a felt experience of the past into the present. Can you share more about that? 

Marshall Ganz The core unit of story is the moment. It is the moment in which one confronts a challenge. There’s a response and there’s an outcome. I can say. I was with my partner at the sea and we were watching the sunset. It was really beautiful and it turned orange and it was really nice. Or I can say I was with my partner at the beach watching the sunset. It started to rain. I turned to go, but she grabbed my arm. She says, hey as long as we’re together, it’s just rain. As long as we’re together, it’s good. Now, something happened in the second moment, nothing happened in the first moment. First moment was descriptive moment. The second moment with a narrative moment. And so getting that that is the core element from which stories are woven are woven together from moments. And a particular moment is often nested within a larger moment, in theater sometimes called a scene, which is then nested within a larger moment. Still has the challenge choice outcome structure called an act. And the same thing in a play. And I mean this is how stories are constructed. And so the other thing that’s cool is because they’re nested, there are ways to link individual challenge and meaning with that of a group, with that of an institution, with that of a community, because they have this nested character to them. But the core unit is the moment. And when we talk about learning to do this, we talk about coaching the person and coaching the story. Coaching the person is finding the right moments that are meaningful. Coaching the story is then the craft with which that moment is re-presented to those with whom one is engaging and the more that it creates a present tense experience, the more powerful it is, because it’s one substituting images for adjectives. It’s visual, and the more present the person becomes to this moment that they’re recalling, the more emotionally present they are, and therefore the more meaning they give that we get. So we’re getting then much more about the person in the moment. So an exercise somebody told me in theater was just try describing all in the present tense without the word and. I come in the room. I see a light. The door swings open. I hear a noise. In other words, you are trying to take the past and make it present. Or the distant and make it present. And that’s where the craft of storytelling is. And it’s why it’s so powerful. 

Salimah Samji In keeping with this podcast series, you know you have real practical tools of how does one learn to do this? What are some ways that people who might be interested in this can do this? 

Marshall Ganz Well, it’s interesting because, you know, people have mastered this craft for thousands of years. I mean, this is how information was passed along because it didn’t just contain information about the world, but also about what is good about the world. In other words, it combined normative and cognitive information. And so that’s all the Homeric tales and all of that is powerful. So people have understood that stories work and they’re powerful for a long time. The science is relatively new, like so much where science catches up with practice. And so this is certainly one of those deals. What we’ve been developing is a way to scaffold the learning. I mean, we all hear our first stories from caregivers. So we already have models. People will say why all the stories? To keep the kids busy? No, it’s usually to instruct. It’s that too, but it’s to instruct. Well, then you say, well, just give them a list. Do this. Don’t do that. Well, that doesn’t do much. You know, it’s all the head, tell a story. Then it becomes a lived experience in the heart on which they can draw. That’s the power of the moral. I mean, I should say everybody’s got the capacity for this because we’re all natural storytellers, just like relationship builders. This is not something you need a Ph.D. to do. And we start by asking a person, well, we explained the overall framework, but then asking a person we start with the story of self. So why do you care for what you care about? Oh, I usually get some answer like, well, because so-and-so offered me a job or why are you here at this training? Well, cause so-and-so told me to come. But then we move through the whys, and usually it takes about five. Well, why that? And why that? And why that? And it means getting very specific, very specific and asking about choice points, asking about moments when there was this or it could have been that just could have been that. And usually we arrive at some combination of moments of hurt when we learned to care. I mean, that’s how we learn to care. So it’s not about an exercise in trauma. It is an exercise in how we learn to care. And that is usually, can be very painful. At the same time, there are the moments where we learned to find hope. To believe in ourselves and others. And that’s the counterbalance. And so it’s moments of hurt and moments of hope. And we all have those in our own history. Charles Taylor, the moral philosopher, talks about the need to articulate one’s moral sources. And he’s not talking about philosophical articulation. He’s talking about experiential articulation. And that’s what this gives people an opportunity to do. So sometimes it’s discovery. Oh, I never made that connection. I’m trying to heal society today. I learned to heal from my father. But by becoming conscious and articulating them, they become resources for us. In other words, they become not an influence on our agency, they become a source for our agency. And that’s kind of a cool thing. So we start with the story of self, and we do that kind of work. Then we move to narrative as a means of communicating story of us. Now, this is sometimes very the story of self is right there. It’s very accessible. Story of us is if you’re in a leadership role, it doesn’t stop with you. It only starts with you because your leadership only becomes leadership by engaging other people. I mean, that’s what it is. So then, how do we do that? And that’s the second piece of narrative work is the construction of what we call the story of us. It’s a matter of articulating experiences that bring to light and values shared by those whom you’re hoping to engage as your us, so to speak. Those whom you’re hoping to engage in responding to these challenges, and so forth. It’s funny because we tell more stories of us than we do any other kind. Any time at a family dinner when somebody says, hey, remember the time that and then they proceed to tell a story and it’s funny or it’s instructive or it’s sad. Those moments are lifting up values we share. That’s why we tell those moments. It’s not with that kind of intentionality, but we say, oh yeah, and then everybody laughs. You know, the best stories of us tellers, I think around, are stand up comedians because they are putting into, language and moments, shared experience. And so it’s an experiential, an experience of us that we’re trying to create. And not just a category that is us. It’s a shared experience rooted in shared values. And that becomes the motivational foundation for people making choices and acting and taking risks. And then the last part is the story of now. And the story of now is different because it’s how to take the present moment and turn it into a story moment. How to articulate the urgent challenge that is upon us. How to find the sources of hope that we could deal with it. And what are the choices we have to make if we are to deal with it? And so it’s the same basic structure, except it’s happening right now. And then we work on how you link all three together. And the thing is, everybody can do it. It just takes practice and it takes coaching. It’s not something you can learn to do in the mirror because it’s a form of communication. And so the only way you know what works and what doesn’t is another person’s response to your attempt at communication. So it’s inherently relational and situated in that way. So that’s how it works. 

Salimah Samji Is there an example that you can share? You know, you’ve worked on several campaigns, and of anyone who’s really told this public narrative, the story of self, the story of us, the story of now in a way that really showcases this approach of yours. 

Marshall Ganz Well, yeah, it’s interesting because we work with mayors every year to train mayors in this. One of our first students was a guy named Pete Buttigieg, who learned in the training, this when he was still mayor, before he ran, about actually digging in and owning this whole question of his gay identity and his identity as a leader, and then how to bring others into that, and then how to translate that into a call to action. And in fact, he invited our team to South Bend to train the community leaders in how to use this story of self, us, now, this public narrative, to engage. Of course Barack Obama, if you listen to the first seven minutes of his Democratic Convention speech in 2004, he starts with self, then he goes to us and then he goes to now. They’re all three there in seven minutes because he’s telling about who he is, where he came from, why he is, who he is. And of course, he’d done the prep work in dreams from my father. And then he’s trying to articulate the sense in which we belong to each other and with each other. And then he takes it to how that our solidarity can be a source of the power we need to address these challenges that we face. The first instance that I know of is in the book of Exodus, chapter eight. This is where I’ve always been a Moses fan because insider and outsider, he was of the oppressed, but born in the house of the oppressor. The Jew who was an Egyptian both. He gets confused about this. And so his rage takes over. He kills somebody. He’s got to go off in the desert where you go to figure stuff out in the Bible, and there he finds a spouse. He finds the father, he finds a father in law, a job. And one day he’s walking along with the sheep as a shepherd, and he sees a glow off the side of the road, and he’s a curious fellow. He steps off the road to see what it is. And it’s this bush that’s burning, but it’s not being consumed. At that point, he hears the voice, Moses or Moses. There’s some theological debate as to the tone of voice that he hears. You are called to free your people and for those familiar with the text, his response is, wait a second. Why me? You have the wrong guy. I’ve got a speech impediment. I can’t even give a good speech. And wait a second, who are you? And who are these people I’m supposed to do this with? And, couldn’t this wait? And that’s when God promises the help of his brother and the staff. So, you know, this has been around for a long time. And so it’s really something so old, it’s new. And because it’s new, all the time, as we are new, as circumstances are new, and as we are with others, and sort of the newness of life that is change. So it’s been around for a while. 

Salimah Samji Your idea of story is lived experience, lifting up values we care about and teaching us how to respond with hope and not fear, and giving us practical tools of the public narrative with stories of self, us, and now and being able to link those three I think will be really valuable for our listeners. So thank you very much, Marshall. 

Marshall Ganz Thanks, Salimah. Thank you very much.