Sampath Kumar

Salimah Samji Welcome to the Reflecting on a Decade of Building State Capability podcast series. On today’s podcast I have with me Sampath Kumar. Welcome, Sampath.

Sampath Kumar Thank you, Salimah.

Salimah Samji So I want to begin with where our journey together started. You came to the Kennedy School for the mid-career program in 2013, and that’s where you had a first exposure to Building State Capability. So I was wondering if you can share that story with us.

Sampath Kumar I was working with a nonprofit organization in the state of UP before coming to Harvard Kennedy School. I was with Rajiv Gandhi Foundation. And when I came there, we met Lant Pritchett along with another colleague, Gulzar. So we formed a group for Working India. And we used to meet on every Tuesday. So the idea was that, you know, Lant wanted what are the systemic issues, you know, in terms of education, health care, governance. So we used to have a lot of discussions on what is working, you know, what is not working. So one thing what we understood is that, you know, to really make things work, we definitely require a different kind of an approach, you know. So we also felt maybe we are also part of the problem because, we means like basically, you know, I represent Indian Administrative Service. You know, we do exercise a lot of autonomy. And also, you know, we are given very important portfolios and important responsibilities. So we started actually working like how actually we can really change, you know, bring that change within the system by really addressing the source of the problem. The source of the problem, that what I understood, you know, it is the kind of lack of autonomy, especially at a cutting edge level, especially for those who are working closer to the problem. You know, whether it is in education or health care. How actually, you know, the frontline officials are working. And most of the time they always look at the central authority for solutions. So how actually we can really bring that sense of the autonomy and also the purpose at the frontline officials to see that they can really, you know, solve the problems, many problems they do not require to look at all the time at the central authority. So that’s one insight that what we got was that we definitely have to bring systemic reforms to change the way the entire, you know, the public administration is handled. When I rejoined the government after Harvard Kennedy School, I started deliberately applying some of the frameworks and the concepts that I learned at Kennedy School. In fact, one of the framework that we use is the PDIA. And also the other framework that we used is the Adaptive Leadership approach. Using this tool, we started actually mobilizing the field functionaries. I visited every block, block is called subdistrict in India, every block of the state started actually trying to build a purpose within the field functionaries and making sure that like, you know why this program has been there, you know, this rural employment guarantee program. And then when we started actually engaging with the field functionaries and also the community leaders, we could see a change. In fact, the program, which used to have about 35 billion USD annual budget. So within three years, it has become $180 billion, almost like a five times jump. So that is a kind of a significant change that we could see. And we could see like every village has started actually seeing the change. You know, they started constructing roads, constructing water reservoirs. What we did was we have actually started giving that entire autonomy to the blocks and the villages and building that purpose. Like, you know, how actually this entire large scale public programs with great objectives have been designed, how actually they can be leveraged to really solve a lot of the problems, you know, that what people have. So often, most of the large scale public sector programs, if you look at, they’re implemented in a very, very routine way with a lot of focus on inputs. You know, the people see that, like whether, you know, checking the box, we say. We generally don’t really see what are the hurdles. You know, how actually these programs are, why they are not being implemented. In fact, the idea is really good, but the idea is not being translated. So one thing that what we have seen is that if you really build that purpose, sense of purpose, if you really give that autonomy and also really work on that, if you work on that leadership, especially the decentralized manner, you can see that significant change that what we wanted to see.

Salimah Samji That’s great. So you had, you know, you said when you came to the Kennedy School, you had been working for a foundation, but you had started your career earlier as an IAS officer and then after the Kennedy school, you went back to the IAS in Meghalaya. And I just wanted to just get a sense of, you have deep experience working in many states in India. And if you could just share a little bit about how that has actually formed some of your thinking on how you actually get things done in government.

Sampath Kumar Yeah. So this is something very important, one for building state capability. What we see is that you require to have a good understanding of how the systems work. At the same time, you also have to have a good understanding of how actually the things work on the demand side. So basically it’s a supply and demand. So I have an opportunity of working outside the government by taking a sabbatical and worked for about seven years, you know, outside the government. So that actually is you know, that work was mostly on the demand side, mobilizing the poorest of the poor, organizing them into women’s economic collectives and, you know, helping them to overcome those socioeconomic barriers. So when we started working on the community side, I started really looking at the kind of aspirations of the people, the huge aspirations. So when you work with the communities very intensely. What we have seen is that is an immense aspiration. One is the aspiration. There is a, you know, strong desire to overcome poverty. And at the same time, we also have seen, in fact, this entire community mobilization program where I was engaged, we have used, again, a community driven development model, which is again, we started, you know, using the community members to mobilize the community members. So initially we bring some external facilitators who study development practice, but once actually they mobilize and bring the community members, the community members, once they understand the concepts, they become the resource persons. And they in turn, you know, mobilize other community members. So what we have seen is that there is an immense capacity. And, you know, and also I say there is an intrinsic desire for even the poorest of the poor to exercise leadership and to help others. So this is the core, you know, the insight that what, you know, I got while working in the state of Uttar Pradesh for quite some time. And thereafter, when I rejoined the government, we started actually working on this only. In fact, that I’ll tell you how actually this entire state capability, you know, project was initiated very systematically in Meghalaya. So there was one finance commission, you know, it’s basically, you know, the Finance Commission works once in a five years. The Finance Commission then they came to state of Meghalaya. So we were all, all the secretaries were giving presentations, you know. So I was in charge of rural development, agriculture and other departments. So we were in the presentations and then the Finance Commission chairperson was asking, like, you are spending almost close to 45 to 50% of the state budget on the staff, especially the human resources. But still, you know, there are certain sectors are still lagging behind. So this actually really, really made us to think and reflect a lot. So I took a two months leave to reflect on this, just to really come up with a strategy like how actually, you know, why, you know, because once some sectors are working very well, where, you know, we did this experimentation while by going to the field, you know, mobilizing this entire front line officials and, you know, community institutions. That actually brought a significant change in terms of the outcomes that I mentioned to you, rural Employment Guarantee Program, whose budgets have been, you know, almost like a multiplier. It’s almost like five times the budget has grown up. So what we have seen how actually these learnings can be converted into a kind of a proper strategy and framework. So there actually we worked on this and then we had some workshops with some of the frontline officials, and we realized that one of the reasons why they really are not able to perform what they really wish to because most of the government, uh, are employed in fact, when they join, especially the those who work for the public sector. They join with a lot of, you know, commitment. You know, it’s a very highly competitive, you know, exams they pass, they enter into the government sector or the public sector and they have lot of ideas and ideals, you know, when they join. But somehow they fail to actually, you know, execute, you know, or translate their ideas and ideals into action. So we started actually having these conversations. And I will tell you in one of the conversations, like the front line officials they mentioned about  25 reasons why they were not able to, you know, do what they really wanted to do. Out of this, 25, 18 reasons were related to hierarchy. So basically they were not getting enough autonomy. You know, they’re not getting enough motivation. So we’ve taken this as a very serious matter. Then we thought like, how do we actually really, you know, work on this, how to really give that autonomy. So we then this entire PDIA, you know, the approach has come. And, you know, I have invited Prateek and Rebecca to come and work with me, and I did. They were just like, they they were MPAID graduates of 2020. They joined me in 2020. And then we started, you know, building this entire state capability very systematically. And while doing this, we also came out with the five pillar framework. You know, we added some other elements. One of the elements I mentioned to you, this is about how important it is to build a political supportability. So we started with, you know, one serious challenge. In fact, like I was also given charge of health department. So we started with one challenge because Meghalaya always used to have a problem with immunization, child immunization. So we always used to be the lowest immunization. So we have taken that as a challenge. And we mobilized the entire workforce of the different departments, not only the health department. There are different other departments who are also connected with the people in the community. So we have mobilizing the entire departments. Within seven months, we could achieve the number two in the country in the sense like in terms of the immunization, like we ranked number two in terms of the child immunization, because that is the kind of a power of collaboration and power of motivation. So what we built was that how to actually really bring that sense of purpose among the frontline officials. So especially this PDIA model was very, very helpful, in fact, because it has a kind of already weekly reviews, you know, understanding what is working and giving that scope for experimentation, giving a holding environment. You know, that is, again, adaptive leadership framework, giving that holding environment for people to experiment and then encouraging them who are doing well. And that recognition is also very, very important. So it became, I would say in Meghalaya everyone started enjoying the work. This is something that we see and everyone talks the same language now. In fact, they talk about a sense of purpose, you know. So there is a tremendous thing has come very quickly. This is something that I wanted to share it with you. It’s a very, very transformative. So I always ask what is this called, how actually to take, you know, what is it like, you know, solving a problem. And for solving a problem, of course, if you think that there is a technical solution, it’s easy, of course, like but most of the public problems are not technical problems. So there are adaptive problems. So basically we started building this capacity to the frontline officials to differentiate between the technical problems and the adaptive problems. So this language now everyone knows about it. So okay whether it’s a technical problem it’s an adaptive problem. So in the adaptive problem you have a role to play. It’s not that like you know you cannot actually look at the authority. You know the central authority. You know adaptive problem, you always have to, you have a role to play. So I think that was very helpful. In fact, we use this entire framework for handling Covid. So Covid, the way, our state is an indigenous population. In fact 85% of the population is indigenous population. So Covid was a very, very serious thing for a state like us because there is a lot of worry. And, you know, so it’s uh, again, when we use this entire framework by involving the medical experts to the communities and, you know, connecting both of them and then designing very, very, you know, the policies on a weekly basis. So we could see, like, you know, we could handle Covid very effectively in a way, because a lot of approaches that what we have developed during the Covid were very well appreciated internationally. So we were one of those states least affected by Covid. And through that process, we also have seen how actually the communities can actually take up the health role. And then we came up with a policy of actually forming village health councils. So it’s, again, we brought village health councils, especially at the demand side. So on one hand the government is working on the supply side and the demand side we could able to bring this entire village health councils concept. So what this entire, both the PDIA and the adaptive leadership, both of these actually have significantly contributed in building the state capability in Meghalaya. And what we did was we started actually thinking about how to institutionalize these practices. So we spent a lot of time on this, and we found actually, you know, we required three actors. They’re already there. In fact, especially two actors are already there within the government system, in the public sector system. So one is you need authorizes, like our chief minister, you know, senior government officials. And you also required the champions. You know, there are champions. Most of the frontline officials, like you call in the US at least street level bureaucrats, they are real champions. So you need to identify the champions, those actually, who handle implementation directly. And then we also both these authorizes and the champions require a support system like those who actually who can help them with data, help them with convening the meetings, taking notes, taking the minutes of the meetings and, you know, reflecting on what has happened. So it’s a facilitating those field visits. So the support system is, you know, I call them like facilitators. In fact, the J-pal engages research assistants and we engage development facilitators. So we thought this is a very, very important group. Like Prateek and Rebecca, the way they have come and, you know, they started to helping me. You know, and other secretaries of Government of India, Government of Meghalaya. So we could able to you know, that support system is also required. So what we have seen, I really see from the building state capability is that now like one is that we need to identify the authorizers. In fact there are many authorizers. In fact, I see many authorizers, you know, especially among the political leadership, because they have a lot of hunger. In fact, we started working with legislators in Meghalaya now. So now they are asking because the legislators, you know, are elected. You know, there is a lot of, you know, expectations that they would deliver and they solve problems of the people. They need a framework. They need a framework. How actually they can, you know, solve the problems. So we started actually, you know, even engaging the legislators. Instead, we are organizing public policy workshops to the legislators. And, you know, we also have set up an institutional mechanism to support this. So now the entire state capability unit now in Meghalaya is called Government Innovation Lab. So we put it as deliberately as a lab because, you know, you need we don’t know the answers for every problem. So we need to experiment. And so this Government Innovation Lab now it is working on four sectors. One is health and nutrition sector currently where a lot of work has happened. In fact we could reduce maternal deaths by 40% in the last three years. So I think maybe it’s a something that, uh, first of its kind because I’ve been looking at the data. I think only in Africa it happened about 33% reduction, maternal death reduction, you know, for any effort like this. So that is one important work that has been achieved. So like a lot of reforms have been taught in the health sector. We also have designed and early childhood development mission, it’s the mission first of its kind in the country to unleash the potential of the children. So while this work is going on, we also now started working on reforming the education sector. So that’s the second important idea. So we’re trying to again bring the ideas, you know, different ideas together and understanding the systemic problems, how actually we can address those systemic problems. So if you wanted to improve the learning outcomes. So what we are saying is that we need to really address the problem. You know, the problem is somewhere else. So we need to, unless we address the source of the problem, we cannot actually see that, you know, the symptom of the problem. So basically we are working on that education, bringing reforms to the education sector. And the third one what we are tackling is climate change. So because Meghalaya is again, our state is a highly fragile state in terms of ecologically and we are working on climate change. And the fourth sector is the, you know, especially the livelihoods and poverty reduction. So this is the way this Government Innovation Lab has been set up. And now we’re working with different departments, different institutions, you know, working on this particular sectors and trying to facilitate this process by identifying those three actors. I would say the Authorizers, you know, we work with the authorizes, the secretaries and, you know, the ministers and, you know, the chief minister, of course. And again, identifying those champions and working with the champions and putting in the development facilitators. So now we also have this Government Innovation Lab is also recruiting the development facilitators and, you know, training them in this entire PDIA approach. And, you know, making sure that like how actually they are helping the different departments and their authorizers and champions. So it’s a kind of a, you know, work that is going on and, uh, very interesting work that’s going on. In fact, the NITI Aayog, which is India’s policy think tank, which has come after Planning Commission. So they were also very keenly looking at what the state is doing, especially with Government Innovation Lab. And, you know, the kind of a partnerships that we brought, especially one of the things what we have also been doing is that, like we are also actually bringing a lot of knowledge, especially the technical partnerships. So from different universities to different developmental organizations. So, for today we have the Gates Foundation is there in our state. So different organizations are coming. And you know looking at how actually the learning can be really leveraged for bringing the better outcomes, you know, developmental outcomes in the state. So that’s it briefly.

Salimah Samji Wonderful. It’s really remarkable to hear several threads. One is your constant comment on purpose, which is so, so important. Right? People join public sector for a reason because they really do want to serve. And in India, it’s even much more so because you have to write very difficult exams, and you have to really want to do that, to want to write those exams. And so that desire has to be there. And this connection to purpose and why you are here and what you are doing is really powerful. I think also what you’ve managed to do is scaling this approach and then creating a lab at a state level that works in this way. Being able to really we like to use the word scale by diffusion, because we really prefer that as a visual than, you know, just copying the same thing because it isn’t really copying. And you’ve done that with diffusing these ideas, diffusing whether it’s PDIA or adaptive leadership and the practice of it and passing it through your entire state, starting with one sector, but moving on, not limiting it to just one sector, but just making it more the ethos, and the way you work as a government organization is really commendable. And I think you might be the example, the only example of PDIA at scale that we might have. And it is really extraordinary to hear about what you have succeeded in doing. But I have two sorts of questions. One, success doesn’t come without challenge, right? And I am 100% sure, even without listening to what you’re going to say, there were challenges. And so I was wondering if you can speak to what some of those challenges were. And then I have another question on authorization. But let’s do the challenges first, and then I’ll come back on the question on authorization.

Sampath Kumar Yeah. So one challenge is that, you know, it takes some time to get more and more authorizers. So that’s a critical thing. So it takes time. But I found some solution for the challenge. Like in fact very interesting. If you cultivate political supportability, in fact, you really have to cultivate basically one has to take some additional effort, you know, to make a lot of efforts. I would say to build that political supportability, authorization is easier. So how to build the political supportability I would say. So one essentially, you need to actually make the political leadership be part of this process. They should see the wins. So when actually when Meghalaya, you know, used to lose almost like I would say $3 to $4 million dollars from the federal grant because, you know, we were not achieving the minimum child immunization coverage. I’m just giving an example. So when we taken that problem and taken it to number two in the country, within 7 or 8 months, it was the chief minister and the political leadership was very happy. So it is essentially they had to see that like, you know, we can actually address these complex problems. Otherwise, there was a default notion that our state is indigenous population, and there is a lot of vaccine hesitancy among the indigenous population. This is the default notion. But when you challenge those default notions and start actually making those progress, you know, especially those small wins, bringing those small wins, then actually you can take on the larger problem. So when we did this one, then actually our health budgets have been increased. In fact, today Meghalaya has the, if you say among all the states in India, Meghalaya spends the in fact largest budget on healthcare. So basically that’s the kind of a political support. So once you see that like, you know, we are able to solve the problems, you can build that authorization.

Salimah Samji The importance of building political supportability is really, really key to doing something so different. And, you know, we often say that the three non-negotiables that we need and it was interesting to hear yours. Ours are first and authorizer with an itch because without the authorizer. And in this case it was your own experience and your exposure. And you had been in your own way doing things that look like PDIA. And I think PDIA is not new. People have if they’ve worked hard enough in the field, they’ve figured out ways that look very similar to it because that is a way to get things done. And so I think it was your own initial authorization that allowed this to even at such a senior level at government, to be able to even allow and create that holding environment, to be able to experiment and try and see. Everything else, you’d been working, hadn’t been working clearly, and you needed to try something different. And you had a sense that, let’s do this because I think it can work. I’ve seen it work different in other states, so why not try this? And so authorization is really key. The second thing is a team because these are complex problems and you cannot solve them alone. So your street level bureaucrats. And for us the team can be at different levels depending on wherever we might be working. We do have what we call coaches that you are calling facilitators also, that sometimes can be really helpful with the teams to be able to step along with them in their learning journey, but we are very careful to make sure that the coaches do not become crutches. Because we are in the business of building the capability of the teams themselves to be able to solve their problems, which is, uh, really great. And then the most important thing is the problem, which you have no dearth of. Where there needs to be something that is shared, the glue that holds them together to be able to do this work. So it was really great that you had this authorization and that you were then able to build it further, to be able to allow this to grow, because you’re constantly thinking about the political support that you need to be able to do this and the focus on showing results. Right. I think one of the things about authorization that we are constantly stressing and people don’t realize this authorization is a variable, it’s not fixed. And just because you have it once doesn’t mean you always have it. It is something that you need to constantly sustain and maintain. So it’s kind of three things build where you don’t have it, sustain where you have it, and continue to maintain it because it is not a given that if you have support today, that you will have it tomorrow. And building and growing that legitimacy and that support is really, really key in order to really grow these kinds of approaches and institutionalize them. So it’s really wonderful to be able to hear how you are thinking about this and, and just to see the kind of progress that you’ve made with incredible results going from the last and in all of the states on maternal mortality to second is no small feat. So not only is it that you are willing to try something different, it is seeing the success. And, you know, success drives success, and for others to be able to see this also makes them want to try something different, especially when what they’re already working on isn’t working and they know it. It really does provide the impetus to why don’t we try something different and see what happens? I was wondering, you know, we’ve ended podcasts with words of wisdom that you can share with practitioners in, and you know, you are an authorizer in this particular case. So maybe some words of wisdom for other authorizers out there who are scared, who would like to do this but think it’s too risky, what are things that you would say to them?

Sampath Kumar So the one I would like to say this. So this is my favorite thing because I see there is a concept called concept of finite time. So it’s a Buddhist philosophy. But I wanted to say this. So I have seen, in fact, in my conversations I mentioned there is a lot of hunger among the political leaders because, you know, they have to work hard, get elected, and they get a only very finite term like maybe in the US it is four years and in India it’s five years. Whereas the public servants, in fact, you know, those who are working for the government generally, their tenure would be longer tenure, but that is also finite only. So people should understand that. So once you have that, if you understand it’s a finite time. So the authorizers actually should see it. So it’s a great opportunity and a great responsibility that was given to the being working with the government, because we are representing the people, you know, and appointed by the people. And there is a sense of, you know, that sense of urgency and sense of purpose is very, very important because  the time is finite. So if we believe that when I think we can really bring a lot of difference, in fact this is what we have seen. And second is that many, uh, especially, I would say in India, many officials, especially those who are working with the government, they shy away, or maybe they need to actually understand how to work with the political leadership. It’s a very important thing. And in fact, this entire authorization is coming from them because they are representing the people. So if we understand that point and if we cultivate that political supportability and especially involving them because they don’t have the kind of training, the tenure that what you have. So it’s a very important thing if we understand that one. So if we use the knowledge and the kind of insights that you have, I think if we start working on building that political supportability on these important issues. So that’s the second thing that I would say, but more importantly, I would like to say something. This is actually now, this can be scaled up. So because we have institutionalized this entire thing and so this can be scaled up. So what you require is the three actors. You know as I said you need authorizers, you need champions, you need facilitators. So we need to look at that one maybe. And I also see that there is a great value in the state to state partnerships. This is what we have been doing. In fact, many times we don’t have solutions like, you know, some other states have already done well. So we are building partnerships with those states, and there is tremendous value that we could see in the state to state partnerships. So instead of working, you know, in silos within the state, just like you need to understand what different states are doing. So there is a mechanism I would like to encourage that like, you know, we need to go for a state to state partnerships between India, maybe even outside India. The third one is that there is a need for that entire global community of practice. I think that’s something that these conversations would be really helpful. And I see there are many people, you know, across the world wanting to do things differently. They really wanted to commit their time. So I think we need to really engage with them and collaborate with them. So many ideas can come up. In fact, today in Meghalaya, we have so many partners are there coming from different parts of the world and, you know, and different universities. And so I think this is the way forward. If I see this particular entire state capability idea using this approach, like institutional model, we can actually solve complex problems. And also we can also actually build the confidence on the idea of nation state, because that’s more important because there is no other model, at least for me. I think it is the democracy, and it is the people who actually brought this entire nation state concept. I think this is the approach which actually builds the confidence among the stakeholders. It gives a sense of purpose for those who are working for the people, and it gives a lot of confidence to the citizens who are actually being part of this entire process. So it is a model that really, I would say is important for these current times.

Salimah Samji Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has been a real delight and I am sure our listeners, whether they may be authorizers or people just public servants listening, will be really inspired by some of your messages, especially hearing from someone who’s done this and done it at scale with such significant results. I think that makes it extremely powerful. And I do love your point on this global community of practice. And it’s one of the things that in 2024, we are going to be more focused on, because we’ve already trained over 3000 people in 170 countries. And what happens when we start to bring all of these people together, where they can learn and they can grow together and, you know, like minded people who want to get things done, who want to make the world a better place. That’s a huge opportunity for real positive change for everyone. Thank you so much.

Sampath Kumar Thank you. Thank you, Salimah.

Kathryn Lang Thank you for listening to our podcast today. If you liked it, please check out our website, bsc.hks.harvard.edu or follow us on social media @HarvardBSC. You can also find links and other information under the description of this podcast.